SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

They look up to you? Well, they can watch you leave too and they can know that they had a hand in ending your marriage. If they have any concern for such things. They sound pretty clueless to me.

They sound pretty fucked up to me.

Hearing relatives joking about sucking and fucking each other and laughing it off is fucked to shit! (yeah I know, through ‘indirect’ teasing, plausible deniability and such. But are we naive kids or adults? Bullshit is still shit).

On the other hand OP, you wrote about the cousin looking up to you and putting you on a pedestal? Is this the same cousin joking about filling holes and blowjobs with your wife we are talking about?

More than looking up and pedestal, seems like the butcher caressing the goose neck, praising her over a chopping bloc, with the knife ready behind his back.

I don’t doubt the family likes you but the over the top incestuous banter as a fun time where you are obviously uncomfortable and you have to leave, signals a great lack of respect in my view.

They’re her family of origin, not yours, don’t be too confident they will ever have your back if it turns out that "filling holes and swallowing body parts " between cousins will ever turn out to be something more than just a very inappropriate and disturbing "joke".

You need to put your self first. They are not going to.

Most of the responses you've received have been from the BS perspective, so I hope you're ok hearing from a WS.

Before I had my affair, which is many years ago now, I was absolutely convinced that I would never cheat. I loved my BH (who was still my boyfriend at the time). I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't want to leave him. I didn't see myself as the type of person who would betray him. I was nothing like my own mental stereotype of a cheater -- someone who enjoyed lying or got a charge out of sneaking around behind their partner's back. Ironically, I think that vision of myself made me more vulnerable, not less, to the slippery slope of infidelity.

My self-deceptive logic went like this:

- I do not want to do anything wrong. That would be out of alignment with my values. I'm frankly disgusted by people who fuck around and lie to their partners.

- Since I'm fundamentally ethical and would never betray the person I love, I not only won't do anything wrong, I can't do anything wrong. It would upset me too much. There's a natural guardrail for my actions.

- Since I have that safety net, this flirtation is by definition harmless. The OM knows it can't go anywhere as well as I do. That makes what I'm doing "safe."

Once I got in this mindset, I started to nudge the needle, just a little bit at a time. Standing near the OM and laughing was fine; after all, I talked and laughed with friends. I hugged friends. I stayed up late talking to friends. I made little gifts for friends...

It should have become obvious to me that I didn't get jealous about people showing romantic interest in my friends. I didn't hang around places hoping my friends might turn up. I didn't dress more carefully for seeing friends. But cognitive dissonance -- the stress that a person experiences when their deeply held belief is contradicted by irrefutable evidence -- is an established psychological phenomenon. People experiencing it don't typically adjust their belief. They adjust the evidence to fit their belief.

I think this is likely to be what's happening with your wife. She's telling herself that her cousin is so off-limits that the idea of a crush on him is not just laughable, it's blasphemous. The only way to explain her behavior -- to you, but more critically, to herself -- is to file it under the heading of harmless family interaction. And if you challenge that with logic, she will double down on outrage at what you're implying.

I'll end with a caution: eventually, my attraction overcame my scruples. We have, sadly, seen affairs between related people here before. If you're wife's cousin was interested in escalating, I'm not nearly as sure as you are that she wouldn't make a move.

Yes you've all been helpful. And opened my eyes. Not sure anything enlightening, but you've all confirmed that this is fucked up and i'm not wrong to be disappointed/concerned/upset. Even right now as i type this, i can see her imessages on our mac computer. She doesn't know that her messages pop us since she is signed into that computer. She went to take a bath 5 minutes ago, so i stepped into the office and logged onto the mac...right away she texted him "do you like taking baths."

I'm starting to believe physical contact could evolve, and it would still shock me. Up to this point, she's made all the inappropriate comments. He would point to a bowl and say "i could use a good blowjob, would you give me that." Borderline, but pointing at a bowl to emphasize not-an-actual-blowjob. But her response was too much. And the cornhole jokes about putting it in the hole, were from her. He never said anything, he just laughed. The text messages, are initiated by her. His responses, even the ones i'm reading in real time right now, are innocent. But why would she go take a bath and instantly start texting him? Any guy while soaking in a bath is odd to me.

Sawyer,

You are not crazy for thinking what you think and the way you say "open my eyes even if not enlightened " makes sense.

Here’s the thing, and I am willing to bet the "usual body part" here : I am certain your gut is stirring and has been for a while. I would even hazard that it begun immediately, if not even before this sexual banter started.

This is because your gut knows, your instincts know. Our animal side is extremely strong in picking up energy shifts from those around.

The mind and attachment later fight that instinct with logic, partly due to denial and partly due to our mental constructs and internal criticism, trying to keep us in check from overreacting and overreaching.

Basically your primal self gets it immediately, then your ego steps up and says:

"wait, if I get this wrong I might ruin my image, reputation, my status quo, it means I’the ego’ have failed to make my validated impression on the outside. And that’s not possible because I ‘the ego’ am perfect, or close to perfection, definitely better that the weak person true self from whom I emanate from. There must be a different interpretation where what he feels is wrong and I am still admired and validated "

And so your internal fight begins, you enter fight/flight mode, resulting in the cognitive dissonance from your instincts and emotions screaming at you and your ego shushing them down.

The body and inner self are suffocated by our mask, and the mask is what we wear day in and day out, the closest to our awareness, as we built it up to smooth our natural excess and strengthen our vulnerabilities and project a persona that we deem "more acceptable " to others in our life.

So of course we follow the mask, the ego’s advice, until now it always served us well, we have grown up with it, carefully building and perfecting it for the most part of our life sine we stopped being little children.

But the body and your primal self, won’t shut up, it’s screaming and this internal battle is tearing you apart.

Why you feel "eye opening "? Because you see your instincts echoed from detached outside perspectives, that tips the scale between your internal battle Ego v True Self and your mind starts saying "shut up your voice Ego, maybe it’s you who are off track"

What bravesirrobin said is resonating in a more polished way to the example I gave you earlier.

Basically when a woman is "getting cooked" before anything happens. She has to get to the stage of "predisposition" to allow herself to be lead down a sexual path even if she knows that is inappropriate or risky.

At first her body responds, but the full awareness comes later, and if it is something that she feels inappropriate (but her body already responds to) you can still pull her in (or better she allows herself to be pulled in) if you make it so that she maintains plausible deniability about just what kind of dance you begun dancing (or she makes excuses for herself, in that case you have to do nothing)

It’s not rational or calculated and if you point her out she might be genuinely shocked. The thing is her body responds sexually to you already, that’s not infatuation yet, is just openness a "maybe".

Nothing more than subtle right now, think about you making an avance to a girl with "want to dance with me?" And she takes your hand.

It’s still in the realm of innocence but there’s an opening from here, a fork: keep it friendly and playful or escalate sexually.

And escalation looks like this: keep it playful, make "inside jokes" a ‘little secret fun thing between us’, you always make her feel safe and stimulated, break the touch barrier so her body reinforces the first response, lock eyes, smile silent communication and I could go on…. But the important part is she must feel safe and have her emotions stimulated by the interaction. It starts innocently and how you lead gathers momentum, I would say "slow" but that’s not necessarily true, it can speed up really fast.

Then depending on how far you can escalate sexually within today’s boundaries of her still feeling safe, you can either pull back or go all in.

Leave her wanting more after giving her enough to want more, or seal the deal when there’s a good moment.

If you unsettle her and she ever feels unsafe, that’s not necessarily the end, but it will set you back. Negative emotions are the brakes to the innuendo, positive emotions keep it up.

(About this above I will put a note: this is not a generalization, it is straight from my ‘playboy book’, so it’s my personal interpretation and experience. Wether I did for myself, or was a wingman for male friends or female friends, this is what I know is working, so no, I am not generalizing on people, it’s how I play "the game". It’s just my opinion. I know the script so well that I am aware how you can turn it from seduction into manipulation, this is a warning to the OP not an advice).

And look here’s the thing that is interesting: both the guy and the girl can follow through this innuendo completely unaware of what they are doing.

It’s just energy and situation one moment leading to another. They both can end up cooked pretty fast almost subconsciously.

They play the same game, they’re just not aware.

Your wife is always feeling safe and shielded by plausible deniability all the time with her cousin. She’s experiencing a lot of positive emotions, she is always left wanting more, that’s why her mind keeps going to those "happy moments " because it makes her feeling good and excited, and at the same time she’s always telling herself "this is innocent fun, he is my cousin, I am not really going to give him a blowjob or allowing him to ‘fill my holes’, it is just fun…. I wonder what he’s doing right now…" (her body responds but she has plausible deniability).

So yes, I am not implying they did have sex or they had (though not excluded) or even that they are consciously planning to do it in the future.

But they are dancing that very dance.

They are predisposed.

Your wife’s body is predisposed and her emotions are too in that place, all over the place.

That’s why you see the inappropriate chemistry when they look at each other, that’s why she thinks about him all the time (especially when her body was pleased by the feeling of a bath or shower or whatever gives her happy chemicals, she started to associate them to the moments spent with him), that’s why their bodies are a bit too close a bit too intensely, a bit too long when they hug.

Her body wants more even if the mind denies it, and his body you are damn sure wants it too (you are a guy, I don’t have to tell you what we feel when a girl gets too close to us and we don’t dislike her).

Maybe they are holding the line simply because they are cousins and that’s incest. This is the best possible interpretation I feel to give you.

They didn’t cross that line yet perhaps (but all others were crossed already). But damn sure their bodies are not caring about their blood ties in the least this moment.

Only restraining keeps them from putting their jokes in practice.

And I wasn’t sure if it’s not just cruel and shut up, but I don’t think it’s free sadism at this point.

This is deeply unpleasant and hopefully it’s just wrong speculation, coming from a different experience. When you are horizontal ladies tend to think a bit more than we do.

I mean not a shocker as we are almost brain dead in those intimate moments, but I have been with a lot of ladies and I was always amazed the kind of shit that goes through their heads in some moments of the intimacy. That’s why they tend to appreciate the moments when their mind goes blank and overwhelmed and they just let go.

This is weird for us to understand because if our mind was wandering around the same in those moments we would be… "disarmed". This is found in a lot of psychological induced ED, performance anxiety etc.

It’s often worries, insecurities or even random stuff, but there’s sometimes a darker side to it.

As sometimes guys happen to have sex with a woman and think about another one, that can be true for women as well.

They may use your body but be in a different place with fantasy sometimes.

When this comes to our partners it’s extremely painful to even think about, but no matter the sting, it could clue you into what might be truly going on in her head.

As gently as something so uncomfortable could be asked… you mentioned you have a very active sexual life. Did you ever notice a pattern change or some subtle shift in passion and intensity if she is performing oral or the other stuff she ‘jokes’ about with dear cousin when she is with you and freshly off some cousin chat or interaction?

I don’t say that to gross you out, I had a lot of female ‘friends’ as in we do have sex but there’s no commitment. It’s not the same thing as relationships for it’s transactional, but the flip side is you get a lot of honesty about sexuality you wouldn’t have from a partner that fears to hurt you.

And sometimes a girl in that "relaxed" comfort zone gives you insight into their heads during- before - after.

The kind of confidence you won’t get otherwise. "I was having sex with this guy and was thinking of you/ wished it was you " or the opposite "while we were doing I was imagining you were that other guy and thought how it would be ".

This stuff is so unthinkable between us and our partner that’s something it would be the nuclear unspoken bomb. Likely a relationship ended.

You wouldn’t confess it to your wife, she wouldn’t confess it to you.

But you can "sense" it.

This was a lot of uncomfortable stuff packed all in one, it was uncomfortable for me to write so I am not sure how you can receive it.

It is a different angle for how your wife might have been still ‘faithful’ (physically at least) as you seem to feel, but also trying to make sense of the red flags and the emotional affair and weird sexual tension in this mess.

I hope theirs is some useful information that you can use to navigate this nightmare, and it wasn’t just pointless free pain.

I hope you get your clarity.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:51 AM, Thursday, July 16th]

She climbs into a bathtub and texts her male cousin asking if he likes taking baths?!

I'm at a loss for words

But why would she go take a bath and instantly start texting him?

Because she was thinking about him. It’s the kind of thing an infatuated teenager would do.

I tried to come up with a single woman I might feel comfortable texting that to (other than my wife). Couldn’t.

I renew the suggestion to get the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

Opportunity is what i want to create. They have always had people around, never alone. When he's here in 2 weeks they will have 3.5 days alone. Of course i mentioned that i may take a day or 2 off to hang out and she's totally fine with it. Thinks we could explore and have fun. Which is why i keep saying i don't think she has/will be intimate with him. In her mind, the attention she's giving him is nothing and harmless. She sees all of it as letting her guard down for a few days and having fun. Her late night texts are just checking on him. I find all of it inappropriate and walking a fine line. And that's why she says i'm being jealous. If you love someone, you don't walk a fine line. Especially if they've expressed a concern. You stay away from the line.

Giving them an opportunity, multiple opportunities will reveal they are/will be intimate in which case she cannot deny. I'll have it on video. Or it will reveal that they are not intimate and they are, as she says, deeply connected and all of this is an inappropriate emotional affair. Which will still be addressed once he leaves. I just don't want to say anything until after they have an opportunity to go as far as they want in the safety of my home with everyone at work far away.

4 pages of posts from very respected SI community members.

I’m crossing my fingers for SBL that you are not wrong here and nothing inappropriate happens.

I don’t think there is anything else we can say or do to show our concern for you and how this is a very unhealthy situation for you.

You've all been amazing. She has been gaslighting me and it's near impossible to argue with someone like that. What she's been doing/currently doing is worse than if she were to be intimate with him. If she gets physical, i have my proof and no "you're just being jealous" conversation will be necessary. I can leave. If she's not physical, i will continue to battle with her on what is appropriate and what is not and i will lay down my boundaries. She can accept the terms and conditions, or i leave. Before joining this forum and getting your insight, i did not have the courage to be in this mindset. Thank you.

SBL,

Let’s say you’re right, that she would NEVER get physical with any other man.

Now let’s look at what she is actually doing, right now.

-openly having sexually explicit verbal flirtations in front of anyone and everyone, including you

-openly engaging in hugs that are far too long for YOUR comfort in front of you and everyone else

-ignoring you when he is present

-sending and receiving flirtatious and sexually-charged texts with him

-gazing adoringly at him while ignoring you

-dismissing any concerns you have expressed regarding those behaviors.

Now you see her texting him, while she is naked and in a tub, asking him about taking baths.

These are ALL indications of infatuation. These are ALL inappropriate behavior with any person outside the marriage - REGARDLESS OF INTENTION to "physically cheat".

Because at this point, each and every behavior she has shown towards him are her teasing with the danger and taboos involved in any possible sexual interaction between the two of them.

She is teasing HERSELF for the sexual excitement she gets from the interaction with him. In turn, he boosts that excitement by playing along.

This is ALL assuming neither of them have any intention of becoming "physical".

Newsflash: she was already "physical" with him while she was in the tub, because that was her engaging him in a fantasy and she likely pleasured herself while in that tub with him on her mind.

My guess is that the plan is already in place for the next step while you’re gone.

Those cameras may catch activity that you will never be able to unsee.

A word of advice:

Creating the opportunity doesn’t mean they will take it.
If it’s not yet a physical affair it’s a shot on the dark if and when THAT line will be crossed.

It doesn’t mean that all the lines that were crossed don’t matter. It’s already in the realm of emotional affair.
I know her denial makes you crazy to the point that you may almost hope to catch them on camera during penetration.

And about this a plea:
Friend, don’t do that. Seriously don’t and then don’t, don’t, don’t,don’t. You have no idea what seeing your woman having sex on camera with another man, will do to you

Unfortunately I do.
You will be vomiting your soul if that ever happens.

If you’re persistent to get her on evidence and you do actually get some, at the first sign, pause the video and never ever watch it.

Trust me on this one.

Besides that, coming back if she is in denial and he is in denial they might still restrain from open sexual intercourse this time,and maybe the next time, and maybe many times after. That doesn’t mean she is safe and not infatuated. It’s a slippery slope that just need the right moment of weakness and chance to explode.

And that's why she says i'm being jealous.

When a woman says that to a man it’s speaking something out like a confession mixed with gaslighting.
You wouldn’t have any need to be jealous if there’s no sexual tension between her and another man.

That sentence is never random and it’s both a test, and a confession in most cases.
Because you addressed her inappropriate behavior, this is a very specific kind of "jealousy " not an innocent one.

All said, once again, if you plan to go ahead with the recording you may either find a false sense of security or in the worst case scenario the realization of all your fears.

Please if that happens (and I hope it doesn’t) do not watch.
I still think that it would be preferable to find another way to confront her before allowing them to sink deeper in the dirt.

You don’t need evidence to support your feelings, she is the cause of your suffering and you already know it.

Before my H’s midlife crisis affair that led us to almost D, my H had the same mindset as your wife SBL.

I voiced my concerns over women & "friendships" and how they were very interested and he has a mindset of "I (his wife) cannot tell him who he can be friends with".

I was gaslit, stonewalled, lied to, I was "over reacting" and jealous (according to him).

Unfortunately a series of events (false reconciliation) led me to tell him I had no other choice but to D him. He’s now begging me to reconsider but I refused. I told him he was free to go.

While we ended up reconciling and being very happy — my H admitted to me that he showed me such disrespect and he’s surprised I am still married to him. He realized (post affair 2) that his behavior was wrong etc. and he should have stopped with the ego boost he looked for (from other women) and realized the damage he was doing to me & marriage.

He regrets all of it and for the past 13+ years has never once repeated the same behavior. I never told him post affair any of this - he came to that realization in his own. He "believed" his friendly banter and behavior w/ women was ok because there was no sex or cheating.

He now sees it differently.

All this to say that your wife doesn’t get it. She doesn’t get the disrespect she shows you and the damage it is causing. I hope she wakes up before it is too late and the damage cannot be repaired.

I suggest telling your wife that you want her to cancel the visit. Tell her you do not approve of the way she acts in his presence. I'm guessing her response will be no, and if so then you know she prioritizes her cousin over you.

When a spouse isn't number one the relationship is in serious trouble

I'm curious, why would you want to spend time with the two of them? Your wife's behavior around this man is a problem for you, understandably, so why expose yourself to that discomfort?

Brother as the rest of the folks have suggested, this leads either to a false sense of security or an annihilation of your psychology. IMO, it's a low percentage play. Don't hand them the opportunity.

I think your tentative plan is to get enough on camera to finally convince your wife that her actions are inappropriate. You'd show her how she looks when she's with him. OR you might get enough evidence to support a D. You don't need either and you may get nothing anyway. She finds the camera and you have other issues.

She has already broken the marriage covenant, even if she hasn't been naked with him. I'm one that's not sure about that either. From your description of events, she's involved in an affair with this man, she seems deeply in love with him even if she doesn't see it that way and she openly disrespects you in front of others. That's D territory already. If you're thinking that you'll see enough on the camera to support that decision, you don't need or want it. Just take a meeting with a divorce lawyer and let her discover that fact. Don't announce it, just do it. Find out your options. Maybe see three.

What you actually want, I think, is for her to finally see what she's doing and snap out of it, right? Perhaps taking the step above will finally convince her, how far down the path she's pushed you. On the other hand, maybe she just doesn't care about the marriage any more. Either way, the path towards D is already, mostly trod.

If you want to find something, you know she's talking to him a lot. Put a VAR in her car and any other place where she goes to be alone. You'll hear the conversations with him and with whoever she confides in about him. Print out those imessages. If you end up filing, she's gonna be asking why?!? Drop all that on her then. I'd have her served at whatever house she goes to where all these relatives, her and him congregate but that's the edgy part of me. Filing is not divorce either. Its a legal filing and can be pulled. I think you want, and I'd hope for you, that she finally snaps out of it, then does the work to restore your trust. I can only offer my advice, for what it's worth and my prayers, which you have. I hope that's okay. I hope you get you wife back or at least a life back.

[This message edited by Onceasailor at 9:39 PM, Thursday, July 16th]

Once aSailor gave you a very solid alternative.

Your wife might be messed up because unresolved issues and emotional excitement led her into affair territory.
You said she’s loving you and she very well might, in her mind it can feel innocent but in reality it is not.
Cognitive dissonance.

Though emotion and brain chemistry can override inhibitions and restraints it the stars align, she might do something that she would genuinely never dream of. Because she crossed all other boundaries already.

Please spare yourself the camera idea, if something like that is ever going to happen and you see it, it will be burned in your mind for life.
For the goal of collecting evidence you are really risking to enter the realm of horror.

There’s no coming back from that for your nerve system.
Infidelity hurts already very deeply.

Spare yourself the agony of horror.

As for not canceling the visit and instead choosing to spend time with them, my response is this. He is coming down to celebrate my son‘s college graduation. We all love this cousin deeply. And he loves all of us. Romantic feelings aside. For that I would like him to be here to celebrate with us. As for taking time off to spend the day with them, I’ve stated before he’s a genuinely good dude. I like him and he thinks highly of me. He has not hit on my wife. His messages to her have been very innocent. He has not taken her bait. Men are usually the dirtbags. Give us an inch and we take a mile. He has not done anything. I do not fault him for my wife’s actions. He does not make me uncomfortable at all. It’s my wife that cannot take her eyes off of him.

Maybe I missed it, but it seems REALLY important that you find the letter and read it. That will tell you a lot about what is really going on.

So if he's a great guy then he must have set some boundaries of his own or told your wife what she's doing is inappropriate, right?

Those long, lingering melting hugs weren't reciprocated, and he averts his eyes or looks uncomfortable when they're looking through you and gazing in each other's eyes?

Do you think that he doesn't notice anything is off or inappropriate when it's directed right at him when you can clearly see it observing it from a distance?

[This message edited by Pogre at 1:23 AM, Friday, July 17th]

Doesn't he ask for Blowjobs?

Yeah great guy!

I’ve stated before he’s a genuinely good dude. I like him and he thinks highly of me. He has not hit on my wife. His messages to her have been very innocent. He has not taken her bait. Men are usually the dirtbags. Give us an inch and we take a mile. He has not done anything. I do not fault him for my wife’s actions. He does not make me uncomfortable at all. It’s my wife that cannot take her eyes off of him.

Sawyer you need to be careful about the cognitive dissonance, many if not all of us have been through it and it gets you blindsided.

First you like the guy and you feel he likes and admires you. All ok here.

Second it’s your wife that behaves like "in heat" towards this cousin. Granted it seems the case, and it is of course the most apparent, but you said something that makes it sound you are being blindsided here in part at least.

Third this cousin is loved and loves your kids, he is part of your life in many ways. That means that the fallout of infidelity has several other people who will be caught in the blast radius.

And if the worst happens it’s not a petard, it’s a nuclear bomb.

Now, as it might be true the cousin really likes you and admires you, this is not any different than how your wife might genuinely love you and thinks she is innocent. But still it’s behaving like a horny teenager fantasizing about fucking her cousin.

That’s her cognitive dissonance.

Here’s the thing, I am not sure how much familiarity you have with infidelity so you may already know this, but I am going to say it for the explanation.

Cheaters are rarely the cartoon villain that they are made out to be in people minds.

Sure there are some like that, if in addition to the cheater dysfunctional traits they have darker traits too. Thinks of psychopathy, sociopathy, narcissism, but beyond the dark triad there might be sexual addiction, perversions and a galaxy of other issues not necessarily related to cheating.

What a wayward is often, is just a normal person, loving caring and "good" (there must be qualities that we saw in them, right? or are we all so clueless that we all married Jack the Ripper? Of course they are "good people " with giant flaws).

The unresolved issues that they carry can stem from trauma or dysfunction in their Foo, but generally speaking you see low self worth, people pleasing, perfectionism, avoidance, incapacity to truly love themselves.

Think about an adult who is an underdeveloped child beyond the surface and craves external validation to feel "worthy" of existing.

External validation is a dopamine inducing drug that fixes the emptiness they fear to address (even admit), and it’s addictive.

It’s the kind of thing one says "I do so much for everyone and I still feel empty, I ‘deserve’ this little thing that makes me happy, makes me feel validated, I am never going to hurt anyone because I don’t want to hurt anyone, I just need to feel fulfilled. So I can feel good. And that will be positive for everyone ".

That’s how they allow themselves to cheat and indulge in infidelity. It’s a series of choices in self denial of unresolved issues that make themselves crossing their own boundaries one of after the othe, because "it doesn’t hurt to indulge in a little fantasy". See remorseful waywards here. There’s not many who ever thought they would cheat.

Most can’t believe they did what they did, like it happened out the blue. But it didn’t, it’s the last step on a long series of choices of self sabotage and ego boosting that unavoidably lead there.

Ask BS how their wife/husband was completely stuck in a fantasy land with self delusion, a different person really. Ask WS how they felt, it’s either self deception or compartmentalization.

Cognitive dissonance, for both. Our is often from the attachment wound.

Then there’s the Affair Partner, another shitshow. Same issues as the WS, same validation cravings. Like you are tuned to receive the disturbing messages that your wife broadcasts and they make you sick, potential Affair Partner are tuned to receive the messages from viable WS.

They spot each other as they wear a neon sign.

"Here’s another person like me who is ready to go down any path to feel alive. We can exchange validation and support each other. This will be exciting ". And so it begins innocently enough, as validation builds up they move from compliments to flirting, then teasing, then as dopamine builds up and they get addicted to the illicit and exciting, the validation craving doesn’t get satisfied (due to the bottomless emptiness) it craves more, so there’s infatuation following, and the last step into the cesspool is a "romance". Wether they fuck or not is irrelevant, usually only a matter of time and opportunity when the last restraint falls.

The wayward begun cheating the moment they looked outside to find their validation fix, the escapism is the first step in betrayal. They romance or fuck the AP not because love or their partner is bad or even they don’t love them. They romance / fuck the first person that is there, available and willing to exchange this transactional validation and dopamine fix.

2 broken people breaking everything they built and those closest to them. There is no love, no self respect, there can’t be respect for the betrayed partner either, even if they still feel they love you, self sabotage is a shitshow.

I think it’s enough and you may know this stuff already, so it’s pointless to go about how the AP might even be close to the BS a "friend" who admires you, and still wants to fuck your partner.

Just imagine when you are dysfunctional admiration can border into envy, and for a low self worth individual stealing your life partner is the ultimate ego boost, it means they are better than you because your partner "chose" them. (They didn’t, they picked the first pig available because it was there and just as broken).

It’s nuanced and faceted, infidelity ain’t simple, were our partners truly trash, worthless scum, that would make everything easier and less painful. They aren’t. They are lovable, but deeply broken.

Doesn't he ask for Blowjobs?

Yeah great guy!

Exactly. With plausible deniability but this is a huge lack of respect. He is asking his cousin (your wife) for blowjobs in front of you, riding her horny persona as a joke and teasing each other sexually in front of you.

Teasing is testing the boundaries. You want to believe he’s not testing how much her legs are open? Maybe it’s true, maybe he’s really not desiring to have sex with his cousin. But sure enough he is testing your boundaries here.

That’s not admiration, that’s probing how much you can get away with.

Why and what is he probing exactly?

So if he's a great guy then he must have set some boundaries of his own or told your wife what she's doing is inappropriate, right?

Those long, lingering melting hugs weren't reciprocated, and he averts his eyes or looks uncomfortable when they're looking through you and gazing in each other's eyes?

Do you think that he doesn't notice anything is off or inappropriate when it's directed right at him when you can clearly see it observing it from a distance?

Exactly right.

If my cousin was ever horny for me and joking about giving me blowjobs, filling her holes or if I like to take a bath while she’s naked in the bathtub thinking about me, I would set a very tough boundary immediately, besides feeling weird and uncomfortable as fuck.

You may give a pass to a sexual joke from a relative once, it’s uncomfortable and weird, but the best I can say it makes you laugh nervously because it’s unsettling and you may reply in kind to descalate the situation with a similar joke, but not an "indulging one" (asking for "please, more of this blowjob/ hole banter"), with something that also makes them feel uncomfortable for poking a disturbing boundary (incest IS disturbing) without humiliating them.

Let’s say my cousin says to me offering me a bowl of something "do you want a blowjob? Mine are the best, you should try!" With or without the same infatuated looks your wife seems to gift her cousin.

I would not feel excited about that joke because is loaded, but she being my cousin I would give her the benefit of the doubt that it might be just an inappropriate joke coming out of an silly atmosphere and that she might have instantly regretted it. So I could answer in kind to bail her out of potential embarrassment but also with something that sets the boundary of "wtf sister!" In a gentle but firm way.

Out of my ass but something like "thank you I would love to have one if only there wasn’t my cousin behind that bowl! from you I’ll just take a almond and then help you with dishes. I really feel we both need to wash after this! Cousin".

Something like that. Not going on with "hey sis, give me another blowjob the last was good" as it seems to be playing there.

Verbal boundary settings.

Do this with any woman and chances are she won’t cross the line of inappropriate behavior anymore.

Physical boundary settings. A hug between cousins or any family members is closer body to body than with friends, colleagues or acquaintances.

That’s because when we touch another person we release oxytocin, that builds trust and connection, is not happening only in sex, any touch. The bigger the surface our bodies connect to, the more oxytocin is released.

A handshake has not the same effect as a hug.

Family=closest connection, the only one closer is what you have with your sexual partner. We are used to that oxytocin so we have closer bodies hugs with family members.

But it’s different from infatuated or sexual hugs. I don’t know why I would need to explain because I’m pretty sure we can all feel the difference instinctively, I think we know that type of hug doesn’t only release oxytocin as in familiarity but it triggers the release of those chemicals that we experience in sexual attraction.

And to feel that with your cousin it is fucking weird. It should instinctively trigger rejection from your body because the chemical cocktail you receive is not at all the one your body expects from family, it’s flipping the sexual switch.

Wether accidental or not, if you have an immodest body contact you don’t have to think if or not to pull away from your cousin body, your body is responding before the mind realizes. You don’t have to wonder (is it ok as long as I don’t grab her ass?". This isn’t rational is instinct.

When the1stwife said "be careful of the hugs" this is what she means. Her cousin is not pulling back, or her body would respond by freezing out of rejection.

He is accepting it. And that kind of immodest contact does release those sexual chemical cocktail wether you like it or not. In both of them.

Surface contact/frequency = oxytocin + other happy chemicals (sexual) when the hug borders in the inappropriate.

Their brains and bodies are being hijacked by literal drugs. Self produced, but as powerful.

This is a dopamine infused infatuation.

Even if it started innocently enough the repetition is fucking them both up.

Do you think that he doesn't notice anything is off or inappropriate when it's directed right at him when you can clearly see it observing it from a distance?

I echo Pogre here with this:

Of course he notices, he has a penis and he likes women. He knows the chemistry.

I add he notices so much that he felt like to write her a secret letter that is "riveting " to your wife.

We don’t know what it is in that letter because it is hidden from you.

I can say what I think it contains from dear cousin at the very least:

Awareness

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:03 AM, Friday, July 17th]